Help
With Your Rule
Multi-Faceted Discipline Issues
Dear Holly,
This question has come up with countless women I have spoken with and is much discussed between my sister and I after a "trying day" with our youngsters. A number of my friends have 3 or 4 small children (under age 5) very close together is age. While we all use corporal punishment, many of us try to only use it when absolutely necessary. What we find very confusing is the use of time-outs, whether they be in a child's room, a corner or on a naughty step.
Let me provide you with an example: Child is blatently disobedient when mommy asks them to stop pushing a sibling. Child is warned once (or not at all), then sent to the time-out (mother simply says "time-out") for an appropriate time (timer is set for minutes according to their age). No discussion occurs until after the timer has gone off.
At this point a few things can happen. Child will refuse to stay in time-out or will start screaming and throwing a tantrum. Alternately, child completes time-out and then apologizes. A few minutes later the child is reapeating the undesireable behaviour.
According to many modern "pop psychologists" you are to allow the child to scream and throw a fit in the time-out, but to us this seems to be unfair to the rest of the family who must endure this racket and shows a complete lack of respect for everyone else who is trying to continue with their lives. If the child refuses to stay in time-out and you spend the entire time picking up their rag doll body and returning them to the time-out, we also feel the time-out wasn't really "completed". Some other children are quite apathetic and will accept the time-out and then simply apologize and continue with the bad behavior. In all of these examples we feel that the time-out was ineffective and requires a follow-up form of discipline.
Should the child have to repeat the time-out? Should the timer not be started until the child is quiet ready to begin the time-out? Should this be a spanking?
So our question is definitely multifaceted and requires a number of answers. I have read countless books on discipline and unfortunately none addresses the exact steps required for any different circumstance. Holly would you please help put this issue to rest. Please be specific!
What do we do if they start screaming in time-out? What do we do if they refuse to stay in time-out? What do we do if they repeat the bad behavior immediately after a time-out? Are time-outs something that just need to be repeated everytime a child requires punishment and no positive effect will be seen for years? Please help us provide firm, yet constructive discipline to our young children and help us live our Mother's Rule of Life.
Labels: 4th P Parent
posted by Holly at 1:48 PM
14 Comments:
This is perhaps the most challenging question I have yet received. Time permits only a brief reply (or else I would have to write another book). I will recommend another author's book at the end.
FIrst off, I know you want me to deal with specifics of the time out thing, but I truly believe the issue needs to be addressed way before you get to that point. Ideally you want to prevent time-outs in the first place, and I cannot stress this too much.
First off, I think you need to examine the situations which are causing the negative behaviors - what are the triggers? What is happening? WHY is this behavior happening? It seems to me that logical thinking about these things - to prevent a crisis before it occurs - is best.
Another of the roots of the problem stems from the fact that once time-out is done, the child is permitted back into the same situation which provoked the initial misbehavior. That is like, to me, sending me back to the fridge to stare at the chocolate cake when I already proved to you that I couldn't keep my hands off chocolate in the first place! How is it that we expect such self-control from children, when in the same situation, we probably could not do it?
Next, I would wonder if you have an adequate routine in place for the children, with plenty of variety - 15 minute snack, then 20 minute outside time or a walk with Mummy, then quiet story time for 15 mnutes, then table craft, then independant play in own rooms, then video, then pre-lunch chores....
A child does not have much room for serious discipline issues when there is adequate routine - and in fact, routine is a type of 'preventative' discipline. It is very important to VARY The acitvities - one is active, the next quiet, the next social, the next alone, etc etc.... And if you make it the same every day,the child feels much more security, and looks forward to her/his day, and this eliminates boredom, caprice, and idleness. This in turn decreases fights and misbehavior.
Now, in the event that a child is misbehaving seriously, especially if this is regular, I would also look at a number of other things:
-learning disabilities
- possible food issues whcih cause mood/hyper issues (most of my children have these, as do I)
- is the child getting direct tender affection and attention? It is easy for Mummy to get tied up and not 'attend' personally to the child.
- does the child feel loved and respected? Does he feel listened to - truly listened to - or commanded...
It seems to me that these above 'important' issues all need to be looked at first, in order to prevent merely an 'urgent' reaction. Discipline problems have a 'cause' and it is the 'cause' which needs to be worked on, not the 'method of discipline' first. The method is only a bandaid to a deeper issue, and we know bandaids don't cure cancer.
Lastly, given the space and time available to me now, I have some things to say about the time-outs.
Where in any Catholic teaching does is tell us to put children in a time-out and not explain? Does God treat us like this? Would you and I like it? Personally, I'd fuss too if I didn't know why I was being imprisoned!
Look at how God treated Cain. He went to Cain, he told him that he was in danger of doing something wrong, and warned him. Can we not at least do the same?
I have always explained what was being done wrong, why it was wrong, and asked that they stop. Usually, the children would stop, although I would often change their circumstance too - the definition of insanity is to do the same things over and over expecting different results!
If a child was out of control, (remember that by the time we get here, the other smaller misbehaviors of the whole morning have escalated to this point!) I would not send them to time out.
I would have them become "Mummy's Little Buddy" which meant that they were not to do what they want, but come along and help me with chores, and they would be permitted to return to playing when they were ready to behave. With one of my children, he would hang around with me for a couple of hours - which he actually didn't mind! It gave him time with me personally, and he was a great help. When he was ready, he'd go play.
If a child was screaming, I'd pick them up, place them on my lap, place my hand on their mouths and tell them I would put my hand down when they stopped screaming, and not before. I would be consistent at this. It takes Mummy's time.
The same held for hitting or kicking or biting. I would hold on , with them sitting on my lap facing backward and not let go until they decided to stop. This is called 'non-violent physical intervention' and it respects the child while containing dangerous behavior. It takes time.
I think that the focus of designing your child's day will provide much more fruit than focusing on how to handle time outs. I perceive that the kids are running a bit loose and hence are getting into trouble more. I would suggest a more strict routine and more personal presence of Mummy as a key way to handle this issue.
Lastly, I have great respect for Dr Greg Popcak's work - his book on parenting- "Parenting with Grace" - is very sound. He also has a talk show which you can call in and put to him specific questions. I recommend this to you.
Blessings
Holly
Lastly! Remember also the old motto - Divide and Conquer. You can always use a time out in a bedroom (split the kids up) where they are free to play quietly by themselves until they are ready to apologize, etc. It removes them from the situation, gives them a chance to calm down, and the exit from exile is related to the apology and hug of the person the child hit. When I am in a grumpy mood, I dont' go to a corner. Sometimes I go take a nap or just get some personal space. Our kids need this too.
My second born was "difficult" in all circumstances from about his first birthday. I frequently had to do a non-physical intervention when he would throw a temper tantrum between his first and third birthdays. He was (still is) extremely strong willed and simply did not like having restrictions placed on any activity.
It was fatiguing! When he was 18 months old, I had another baby and sitting for 15 minutes or more to get him to calm down became difficult due to the demands of the newborn, plus his older sibling. In other words, this one child was demanding significantly more of my time than anything else in my life to the point that the rest of the family was being neglected. It was unfair.
Again, I really feel that this was an issue, not of me failing to prevent triggers, but simply a child who refused to take no for an answer and who overreacted to basic, firm, loving discipline. I couldn't let him have his way, but I did absolutely everything I could to obtain cheerful compliance.
Finally, I began to use a timeout so that I could nurse the baby (and when he was 3 1/2, I had another baby to attend to) or take care of other things. He would get two warnings and on the third infraction would get a timeout. He wouldn't stay put, so I put a hook and eye lock on the outside of his door. He trashed his bedroom (including his brother's things), so I finally started using the bathroom for the timeout (less of a mess for HIM to clean up).
I felt absolutely awful about locking him in the bathroom for even the three minutes, but by the time he was three I really felt that he was manipulating me and the rest of the family. I really didn't care that he screamed for some of the time, but he had to have calmed down in order to get out. Afterward, we started fresh and I tried hard to maintain a positive and pleasant attitude toward him, even though there were days that were one time out after another.
He's now 7, and still strong willed. He still is quite expressive in his dislike for rules and restrictions and how he wishes he could do whatever he wanted to do whenever, and he still spends a more frequent amount of time having priviledges withdrawn than his siblings, but little by little he is mellowing and I don't feel that we are constantly engaged in a battle of wills.
On the plus side, he is (and always has been) very loving and also very spiritual. I think he wants to do right, but feels a strong temptation to do wrong. His favorite prayer is the Prayer to St. Michael, and he prays it often, by his own choice. He'll be making his first Penance soon, and I hope that the graces received will help him in his battles.
First of all, I would like to express my gratitude for asking these questions and for other's generosity in sharing what they have tried and done.
Secondly, I have a VERY strong willed 3 1/2 year old son. He is the 3rd child. we have 5 under 6 years old. This has just got to be the hardest job around. It is not like it used to be with others to help out, family close by etc... In fact, I am the only at home Mom on my street. There is not many others around to just distract our children from each other. Yes, we get together with lots of friends etc...but things are defiently NOT what they used to be like.
To the mom who wrote in this question: thank you. I know that there are others out there who go through the same thing as us. It does get overlooked frequently so i am grateful you asked.
My son is very strong willed and these past 2 months have been horrible.
He has a huge tendency to throw tantrums anywhere and with anyone.
I agree with HOlly about taking action prior to his tantrums and trying to avoid it. We try to see where and when the fire may occur and turn away to get him away from it. We also find him to be very passionate, very loving too. So, we give him lots of hugs and affection, holding and carrying him still, eventhough he has 2 little siblings too.
We have tried time outs to no avail. We have tried spanking but to no avail. We have found it is more in our anger to let it get to that point and it really does not stop what is going on and preventing it in the future.
I do not have any specific answer b/c I do not know either.
But one thing has helped is to learn their temperments. A good book is by Art and Lorraine Bennett called The Temperment God Gave You. This has helped with all our children.
We have found that just making it through our day with the survival mode has been what the past few months are like.
I agree what Holly said about a schedule, it is just keeping with it and haveing the energy to fufill it daily.
A big thing for us is sleep (which i should be doing now!!) and if we and the children sleep well, then we are all better charitable people.
B/c we have a fun and loud house and it is always busy, that down time by themselves is awesome and they relaly like it.
The more I have talked to other moms of many little young children close in age, it is very common, to see that we just do not have THE TIME to tend to every single one of their needs. So, we (my husband and I) have come to the conclusion that God has not made a mistake in this and that it is truly His Divine Will. We need to seek help from others and ask and ask again for help and allow them to say NO to us and not assume that they cannot do it.
Even my spiritual director said to me that it is quite impossible to think to that we can do this just by ourselves. Way back when... many others were around to help out. All this i am saying is b/c we have found that in order to be consistent in discipline and to have the time to discipline and teach our little children, there has to be someone to help watch the other children so that we can tend to the ones that really need the teaching.
We are their teachers right NOW and not their friends. This is the time to form them NOW.
I hope i helped out at least a little.
I pray for you and all moms of many young children close in age. We have a very hard road of purification now. Just keep praying and offering up and keep trying. Don't give up. Keep trying many new ways.
OH, one other thing is what someone said to me a few months ago and it really made an impact. That is....are you babysitting your kids or forming your kids????
we parents are called to form our kids.
i have to admit that for 5 years, i was babysitting and now i am (trying to) form my children...which is vERy hard but it is what God calls us to do and requires us to do. I am also going to confession more and daily mass more too and begging God for help in this life long job.
I'd like to continue to stress a couple of points.
Anonymous mentions how everyone is more charitable when they get enough sleep. It is very very important to recognize the effect of the body on temperament and mood. And the body is affected by sleep , exercise, foods, and chemicals. Attendance to food is a very important issue, especially when dealing with ongoing serious 'strong-will' and tantrums. One woman I know has a son adversely affected by plastics.
I highly recommend the book "Is This Your Child?" All I know is that, in my family, too much wheat and dairy leads to depression, anger, and other mood and mental-learning issues. Each of my children is affected differently, and when they get to a certain point, I know diet alteration is the answer. I DIDN'T know about this when they were younger, and in retrospect, it answers MANY issues I too had to deal with, especially with my eldest son as a small child.
If a child is doing serious ongoing discipline issue things, I would look into this first. It is usually the foods he loves the most whcih are the problem, or the foods which the family eats the most, like dairy or wheat or too much sugar. A friend of mine took her son off wheat and his behavior change was almost miraculous!
Secondly, anonymous mentions the difficulty in managing a schedule. When these types of things arise in our families, it is the area God wants us to focus on. So often, as young mothers, we are still learning the skills of time management. I suggest that a reduction of all the things I 'want' to do, initially, in favor of all the things I 'need' to do to ensure that the children have a solid routine.
This is actually quite a penance for a young mother. But this is a season of motherhood, it is difficult and it too shall pass - in the meantime, offering all this up for the conversion of our family and of sinners throughout the world does not 'waste' the pain involved in fidelity to our vocation.
Lastly, I really liked the point about are we being babysitters or are we mothers? THIS is a reality I too had to face in my mothering. It again, is a difficult path to take, but the fruit is important.
Our children need our focus, internally as well as externally, when they are little (and I am finding even more so, in a different way, when they teens). It is a type of penance, truly, to stop what I want to do, to listen to a child. And when I get back to what I want to do, another child comes, and I need to attend to them. And then, when I finally get back to what I want to do, another child comes wanting to talk too!
Last night, I went a whole hour trying to study but engaging in conversation with each of my children. But the reality is, the kids come first. And my studying can come when I have fulfilled my daily duties regarding 'being there' and being focused on my family. Once more, God multiplies our meager offerings.
I just want to say that I so appreciate everyone's input, sharing of personal experiences, etc. on this issue. It is one our family has been struggling with for about a year now, too, and I have been wanting to write to you, Holly, to ask about it also, but didn't know exactly what to ask. Our son is almost six years old and began exhibiting some very disrespectful behaviors, as well as disobedience, about a year ago. It has slowly improved, but not before it became much, much worse, and was very bad for several months. We were punishing him for every disrespectful and disobedient behavior to the point of him losing all privileges for whole days at a time (following Dr. Ray Guarendi's advice - he calls it blackout). We finally decided it was not only not working but was making our son even more resentful, etc. Maybe that approach would work with some children, but not with our son, because of his temperament, personality, etc. We decided to focus on Greg Popcak's advice of really building and strengthening our relationship with our son - giving lots of affection, attention, etc. - as well as using each wrong choice that he makes as a teaching moment rather than just reacting with punishment and anger. It is definitely changing things. I know, though, that I do need to have a more consistent routine as Holly recommends, which I am trying to do in baby steps, which Holly also recommends! The MROL helps tremendously with this, especially with the motivation to do it. I have gone on longer than I planned. Thank you, again, to everyone for sharing your wisdom.
God bless,
Wendy
Remember that post where Holly extensively listed all the things the little children can do to keep them busy while older children are doing schoolwork (like playing ring-toss with an upside down chair)? I love that list! I would not have thought to let my little ones play with a drizzle of water and a toy at the sink. Print out that list as a back-up plan when children need to get busy instead of bickering and picking at one another.
Another discipline suggestion is what we, at our house, call "a do-over". This doesn't work until a child is about four years old. If they whine or speak disrespectfully, say something mean to a sibling, etc. I give them a chance to "do that over". When they comply, the incident ends on a positive note with a child saying something nice/respectful. They see Mom is pleased and feel good about it.
About time-outs: we don't use time-outs but stand the children in the corner (beginning at age two-and-a-half, which is when they understood it).
Since you wanted specifics, here's what has worked at our house (5 children, ages 1-7, three boys, two girls).
Ages 2 1/2 and 3.
Mom says, "You threw a car. No. You have to stand in the corner." Child stands facing the corner, relatively quiet, little squirming, for about 30 seconds. 30 seconds is longer than you think! Mom says, "You can come out now" and redirects the child away from the original scene of the crime, if needed. If my child sits down or tries to get out, they get a swat on the bottom and I face them back in the corner. I am VERY consistent with this and never give in!! There are no swats for screaming/yelling.
Ages 4-6.
Mom says, "You pulled your brother off of the bed. You know better than that. Go stand in the corner." Child must stand facing the corner, quietly, no squirming, for about 2 minutes. Mom says, "You can come out now. Go apologize to your brother." Sometimes a 4 year old needs a swat on the bottom to stay put, but by this age they have figured out that they aren't getting out until they are silent and facing the corner.
Dad handles big offenses if he's home. Since he rarely is the one to put them in the corner, they know they did something particularly wrong.
Now, if you are having to put them in the corner constantly, over and over again, several times per hour, it is not working. Draw them in close, like Holly said, being Mom's special helper. Put a chair right next to your rocking chair and let them stay close even while you nurse a baby (this has been difficult for me to handle sometimes, but sometimes necessary).
Keep your house busy and fun so that standing in the corner really is a punishment because the child is missing out on the fun!
Also look to the future. I was miserable about a year-and-a-half ago. Now I have a 7-year-old boy who has a tender heart and a 6-year-old girl who loves to help out. They are both a tremendous help at keeping the smaller children busy, putting laundry in the dryer, folding towels, and tidying up. They like to teach the younger children letters and numbers. The younger children want to imitate them. All of the effort at keeping them obedient in the younger years is already paying off!
P.S.
That "list" of things to do with little ones can be found on the Holly's Notebook page at the bottom of the page.
Thank you Holly for responding to my email.
I have read and re-read your reply along with the other scomments.
While I am working through MROL, I am finding that I have focussed too much on the housework side of life and too little on scheduling the children. With 3 year old twins and a 1 year old, the help offered is often accompanied by a great deal of additional cleanup. Just feeding, dressing and moving 3 small children seems to take up most of my day. I am organized (as my family and friends will certainly attest to), but it seems like I am trying to do too many things in the hours available to me. Every task seems to take so long with breaks for discipline, cleanup, and just keeping everyone on task.
I find that the twins want to do everything together. If I "punish" one with being "mother's helper", they both want to do it. Then there is fighting over who gets to do what and by the time they are settled, the baby is crying. I am trying to get them to spend more time individually so that they will be more willing to do things alone. Surprising challenge with boy-girl fraternal twins!
I will try some of the activities and schedule the rotating times (active, quiet, alone) as you suggested.
We are difintely covering off all the nutritional items as we have them on a highly specialised diet.
I pray that I have the patience to continue with little immediate positive feedback until the day that they are true helpers. God will provide the grace, we just must ask.
You know Nadine, I know EXACTLY what you mean about focusing too much on one's housework. It's really the 5th P idea coming first, isn't it. I have been there, and I think it is normal to be drawn there, or even tempted there. One idea might be to simplify your house - to remove all excess stuff and trinkets for the time being - to reduce drastically the need for your efforts in the 5th P , and to open up time for the other Ps.
Also, I was laying in bed this morning realizing that my reply to you was about what YOU could do. But I forgot (!!! shame on me !!!) to include what GOD can do! You know, it is so characteristic that we can forget all about God's involvement and focus on solving our own problems. Remember that Mary has promised "Whatsover you ask thru the recitation of the rosary will be granted you!" Now, how's THAT for help! Put your situation to prayer - ask God directly for your needs and for strength and balance, and pray for your kids.
I remember needing to pray for my oldest son when he was 5 - he was a bit of a terror at times and had no attention span and we even built an outside large penned area to contain him! I could not rest while he was awake and he caused me undue stress.
I prayed: "Lord, help me to see him as you see him, and to know how to deal with him." Within a couple of months , my mother was visiting and complained to me that I was 'favoring' Nick! In other words, all she saw was my heart showing - as I discovered a new little lovely boy! Things greatly improved from there. God is faithful.
You might be interested in this book
"Keys to the Hearts of Youth"
http://www.salesians.org/publications.html
I just wanted to add one more idea.
We have two children (now in their twenties) who, when young, fit the descriptions of the difficult, headstrong, disruptive children the mothers were having trouble with. We tried all the advice given on your site, and more, consulted therapists, and more. It is difficult to form a child when most of your interactions with them are damage control.
Our most-difficult child (a daughter) was finally diagnosed as Type II bi-polar disorder when she was in her mid-teens.
Our son was diagnosed as Bi-polar when he was in his mid-twenties, complicated by post-concussion syndrome and mild epilepsy brought on by the multiple head injuries incurred by a child who wouldn't slow down or listen to cautionary rules...
When these children were young, the medical "wisdom" was that "children don't get depressed, they don't have anything to be depressed about." Fortunately now, the thinking has changed and
mental illness is recognized as a chemical imbalance, much the same as diabetes.
Anyway, when dealing with a headstrong, seemingly unreachable child, I suggest that it is always worth considering the possibility of a chemical imbalance.
Thank you, thank you, thank you! I really appreciate the original question and the answers and suggestions from Holly and all the others. I have four children, ages 6, 4, 2 1/2, and 9 months. I, too, have troubles with kids who just do not get along and will not allow me to get anything done because I have to constantly stop to separate the combatants or pull them out of whatever mess they are making. I expect them to play by themselves at least some of the time, and they do, but not long enough! The 6 year old was and is very easy-going and willing and able to play by herself, but the 4 year old and 2 year old need direction and entertaining. Throw a nursing baby into the mix, especially one who is crawling and getting into things, and it's no wonder I am totally exhausted and frustrated at the end of each day. I find it hard to spend a lot of "face time" with my kids. I'm a quiet sort who needs quiet times during the day, and noise and confusion just drives me crazy. So does "help" from my kids. I am learning, though. I have tried to put into place a Mother's Rule for two years now, with limited success. But the ideas shared here about discipline and also that list of activities is just what I needed! It is a relief to know that I'm not the only one who struggles with this. My mother and mother in law never had these problems and are also 1200 miles away. My husband is very understanding and gives me a night off every week to go to Mass and have alone time, and we do pray together every night before bed. I too have found that sleep and diet are big factors in kids' behavior. So are non-food allergies, like seasonal or pet allergies, or the medications given to help allergies. We've been on that merry-go-round with our son (age 4), and the conclusion is that he doesn't have allergies after all, he has sleep issues, and the allergy meds were making it worse. Now we have to figure out why he has trouble sleeping. But for now, I think paying more attention to the kids' routine and having more activities to direct them to will help temendously. Thanks to you all!
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